User: suricattus Date: 2008-04-11 17:03 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Mind you, some bugs can be tasty....

Also, I'm not sure what the line between "a very few" short stories and "a reasonable amount." The amount seemed reasonable to me, but someone more prolific would doubtless consider it a wee sma' dram....

User: lisamantchev Date: 2008-04-11 17:05 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I answered "yes" to the "Was the first novel you sold the first novel you wrote?" question, because I discount my earlier effort at novel-length fiction as 1) a series of short stories loosely strung together and 2) something that will never see the light of day. The first novel I sat down to actually write _as a novel_ is what I sold to Feiwel & Friends.

That said, I am very lucky to have an editor nudging me through some very necessary revisions right now (which sounds better than whining and floomping over the keyboard, which I have also done this week.)

User: jaylake Date: 2008-04-11 17:18 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Well, see, now you're applying a quality filter to your first efforts at novel-length fiction... :p

User: lisamantchev Date: 2008-04-11 17:19 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Naw. I just never had that "I'm writing a book!" feeling the first time.

User: jaylake Date: 2008-04-11 17:21 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Neither did I, though for different reasons, I think. I was so intimidated by working at length that I had to sneak up on The January Machine. I kept telling myself it was a reaaaaaaaaally big short story.

User: lisamantchev Date: 2008-04-11 17:24 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

*L* So there's another discussion: did you INTEND to write a novel? Was it a case of the Short Story That Would Not End? (I had one of those immediately after the first theater book, because my brain was stuck firmly in long-form.)

Sounds like a panel for a con: "Intimidation and Denial: Why We Thought That Novel Wasn't A Novel"

User: jaylake Date: 2008-04-11 17:26 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I knew it was a novel, I just had to doublethink myself into not chickening out. Even back then I had some dim notion of idea sizing.

User: swan_tower Date: 2008-04-11 17:08 (UTC) Subject: (no subject) Keyword: *writing

The next-to-last question needed another "No" option -- you're going to end up with a lot of bug-eaters from those of us who have neither sold nor re-used portions of our first novels.

I substantially re-wrote my first novel, but didn't substantially change the plot; I just improved it on the level of pacing and characterization and so on. It isn't sold yet, and we aren't technically shopping it around at this exact moment, but I have every intention of publishing it someday.

User: renatus Date: 2008-04-11 17:24 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Oh dear. I can't answer your poll, because aside from the first question, it all ends up, err, rather buggy. *g* Basically, none of the options really quite apply.

I'm working on a novel right now that I am going to try to sell when I am done with it. It's not my first--I've completed at least a first draft of fiveish novel-length stories and have a number of partial things--but it uses a lot of bones and scrap from my first, which was a silly thing I dashed out to see if I could write anything more than a couple of pages long and promptly ignored for a few years.

I definitely wouldn't want to try to sell the very first one. Or the second, which was definitely crap (although I can pull salvage from it, too). The third and fourth are personal projects that I have up online. I don't consider what I'm writing now to be more than a distant relative of the first.

I appreciate short fiction quite a lot, but I don't know that I can write it worth a damn. My attempts seem to swing between 'too sparse' and 'too blathery'. Every so often I try, have a fit about it, and put it aside while I go work on a novel.

User: jennreese Date: 2008-04-11 17:28 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I feel silly for having to ask, but how are you defining "trade press" and "independent press"? I'm assuming Juno Books (Wildside) qualifies as the latter, but I'm not entirely sure. :)

User: jaylake Date: 2008-04-11 19:20 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Slightly more loosely, "big New York houses" and "everybody else." Except "big New York houses" isn't quite right because some folks around here sell to big Canadian or UK houses...

User: autopope Date: 2008-04-11 17:32 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Under "If it was not your first sale, did you eventually sell your first novel?" you not only missed "nope, not a hope" but "nope, and I didn't sell the next sixteen, either". (The latter being the correct answer in my case, give or take a novel or three.)

Zelazny's advice that first you need to write a million words of crap was, in my case, a drastic under-estimate.

Edited at 2008-04-11 05:33 pm (UTC)

User: caias Date: 2008-04-11 17:33 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

My first novel sale fell into my lap.

It was, while I was shopping around Prodigal (my sci-fi novel), someone I knew contacting me out of the blue and going 'hey, I know a company putting together a new teen fiction line. You should contact them.' And I did, and ended up with The Only Brother coming out April 30th.

I'm working on the short fiction market, but no luck yet outside the adventure game industry (which for some reason insists on paying me professional rates when lots of people are getting half a cent a word). Ever forward...

User: flemco Date: 2008-04-11 17:33 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

My first novel was the first book-length fiction I'd ever completed, and it got picked up by a fair-sized independent press.

To this day, I wonder why the hell they did that. The book sucks. It's a stinkburger. I don't recommend anyone read it. Some people thought it was good. I think they're insane.

Edited at 2008-04-11 05:51 pm (UTC)

User: caias Date: 2008-04-11 17:51 (UTC) Subject: It's your sparkling personality, James...

And your stunning respect for authority :)


Seriously, sometimes works just click with the publishers/agents/writers, even if we don't think they are good. I look at some things published and wonder how they got out there, while I see other stuff and wonder why they aren't making movies of it yet.

And now I have to get your first book...

User: flemco Date: 2008-04-11 18:05 (UTC) Subject: Re: It's your sparkling personality, James...

I beg you not to.

And yeah, I get the same thing. Especially confusing are some of the HOT HOT HOT titles on the NYT list.

What asshole decided to greenlight Neanderthal, a book that reads like it was penned by a fourteen-year-old D&D dungeonmaster?

Or, *ugh* The DaVinci Code?

User: kradical Date: 2008-04-11 17:37 (UTC) Subject: (no subject) Keyword: crazed writer

Have you sold at least one novel professionally?

Yup, to the trade press for an advance. In fact, I just signed the contract for my 40th, all to large publishers. (I was gonna say "New York publishers," but one was British and a two are Canadian, though they have offices in New York.)


Did you sell short fiction professionally before you sold a novel?

I said "a reasonable amount," but like suricattus, I'm not sure what the dividing line is. I'd sold six.


Was the first novel you sold the first novel you wrote?

Hell, no. My first novel was written in high school, and it's lost to the ages, thank God, as it was wretched.


If it was not your first sale, did you eventually sell your first novel?

This got the bugs answer. It was a piece-of-shit Star Trek novel that was just wretchedly bad.


If it was not your first sale, are you marketing your first novel now?

Mmmm.... bugs....

User: jaylake Date: 2008-04-11 19:21 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

If I was in a teasing mood, I'd say you were an outlier, but more seriously, you're a role model.

(And if that doesn't scare you, you're not paying attention...)

User: kradical Date: 2008-04-11 19:26 (UTC) Subject: (no subject) Keyword: elvish

Oh, definitely scared, yeah. *laughs*

User: gaaneden Date: 2008-04-11 17:41 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I didn't know how to count the co-authored game books - one of which is a mass paperback novel coming out in Sep 2008.

User: jeffsoesbe Date: 2008-04-11 18:11 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I needed the radio button for "I don't write novels. I write short fiction."

(and after selecting that option, the Submit button would cue kenscholes chuckling and saying "just you wait, buddy, just you wait.")

- yeff

User: kenscholes Date: 2008-04-11 22:55 (UTC) Subject: Pre-emptive Moment

(Chuckling): Just you wait, buddy, just you wait.

User: cmpriest Date: 2008-04-11 18:17 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

FWIW, my first sold novel was my sixth novel written. None of the previous ones shall EVER see the light of day, if I have anything to say about it. :)

User: squirrel_monkey Date: 2008-04-11 18:22 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Ditto. Well, in my case, seventh, but I am slow.

User: irysangel Date: 2008-04-11 18:29 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I'm eating a lot of bugs, I think. I wrote no short stories before my first novel was accepted for publication. That being said, I find short stories incredibly hard to write. I can't shovel a cohesive plot into anything less than 30k, but it doesn't mean that I sneer at the medium.

And first novel only comes out into the light of day so I can have a good snigger or two. Mine had time travel as well, plus lecherous Puritans, misplaced Indian tribes, fairy godmothers, lecherous priests, lecherous Metis (notice a trend?) and even the appearance of Ogopogo. FTW. Not.

User: archangelbeth Date: 2008-04-11 19:24 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I haven't sold my first novel. However, the first short story that I ever did submit? At age 17? Is in Marion Zimmer Bradley's Sword & Sorceress #7.

Blighted tough act to follow, that. (So I detoured into co-authoring and then authoring/editing RPG supplements for a while.)

I need to revise my first novel. It was SF and now I might as well've put vacuum tubes in it. If I can get the tech level working again, though, it might have a chance.

User: marthawells Date: 2008-04-11 19:32 (UTC) Subject: (no subject) Keyword: Wheel of the Infinite

I sold the first novel I ever wrote, to Tor in 1993. I tried to sell short stories before the novel, but never managed to, until after my second novel came out.

User: anghara Date: 2008-04-11 20:01 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I probably shouldn't even ask but what's a reverse serial murder...?

User: calendula_witch Date: 2008-04-11 20:46 (UTC) Subject: (no subject) Keyword: First Book

Is a blank-sheet rewrite basically a "good idea, but the whole thing stinks, so set it aside and start over"? I'm doing that now, sort of without intending to, it just worked out that way.

It's my sixth novel, I guess, depending on how you count. I couldn't answer your survey because I haven't sold any novels (yet), but I have sold some short stories, and am enjoying working in the short form. Good practice, good sense of closure to finish something quickly--and making a little sale is a fantastic feeling!

User: cecewriter Date: 2008-04-11 21:21 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

If I don't land another contract/sale by the time I finish my current project, I plan on going back to work on my first novel this summer. I'm still LOL@I'd rather eat bugs! And FWIW I think I sold my seventh.

User: hownottowrite Date: 2008-04-11 22:32 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

My first and second novel are separated by seven years, but are equally terrible. Lately, I've just taken to shooting the books in the head once they are about half way finished. It seems to be a far more humane treatment.

User: kenscholes Date: 2008-04-11 23:03 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I'm with you on this one. I had thought early on that "someday" when I was "ready" and "good enough" I would write a novel. I had two 20k starts that I now realize just middle-muddled out. Then somewhere along the way, I decided I must be a short story writer largely because the thought of writing anything longer than 15k words paralyzed me -- the time invested, the presumed lack of skill, etc. I still had no idea it was time to do it until (after endless cajoling from everyone else) I was finally cornered in a bar over a bowl of tatertots by you and my wife.

(I still suspect it was a plot to assassinate me by way of panic implosion so that the two of you could run off together.)

In the end, those four interconnected stand alone short stories I insisted I would have to write (because I don't write novels, after all) ended up turning into at least five books with more ideas growing out of that world and characters every day.

I think the short story route worked great for me. I built up some skills, learned some tools, and developed some work habits that are serving me well.

I count myself fortunate that my first one has landed so well right out the door. I'm betting that my fear of the form kept me avoiding it until I was more than ready to tackle it.

Great post, pal.

User: kenscholes Date: 2008-04-11 23:05 (UTC) Subject: PS

I don't recommend that folks use the Ken Scholes Panic Attack Method of Eventual Novel Writing. Just write. Every day. A lot. And listen to your short stories if that's the path you're taking -- sometimes they're just the beginning of a bigger tale.

User: jeffsoesbe Date: 2008-04-12 06:24 (UTC) Subject: Re: PS Keyword: spiderjerusalem smoke and type

My plan consists of the following:
a) write short fiction until I keel over at the keyboard (or whatever we're using in 70 years),
b) sell some stories, hopefully regularly,
c) stay away from tater tots.

back to it,

- yeff

User: manmela Date: 2008-04-12 09:27 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

The early part of this sounds like me, who has put off several novels because "I wasn't mentally ready". One of them is now 20 years old (even though I once wrote 80,000 words of it when I was 16). Short stories weren't /aren't really an option for me as, if I'm honest, I've never been a great reader of short stories. However joining a mainstream writer's circle has allowed me to go and write all the bad stuff I need to before I get good. It's a work in progress - the writing is OK, but I seem to just write trope. I've also written loads and loads of non-fiction over the years, so hope that counts as my million words of crap.

But I've come to the conclusion that with the market as tough as it is to break into, I'll probably never be published, so I might as well write the book for my own benefit and then let every publisher in the land reject it. So I'm currently just shy of 50,000 words in and whilst progress is slow, it's still progressing and I'm actually enjoying the experience. When I need a break I take a week or two off and write a few new short stories and I think those are getting better as well

User: jaylake Date: 2008-04-12 13:33 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

"I might as well write the book for my own benefit" == "writing what you love"

Which happens to be about the best way to get sold, since the passion shows through...

User: karjack Date: 2008-04-12 00:56 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I wasn't able to accurately fill out the poll. I'm in that in between stage where I've sold a few short stories, am putting out a few more on the market, but I'm still in the process of writing my first* novel. A baby writur iz me!

*I'm not going to count the ones I wrote many years ago with no intention of ever showing them to someone else let alone selling them.

User: halspacejock Date: 2008-04-12 04:05 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I self-pubbed three books in the Hal Spacejock series (and was about to write a fourth) when a publisher's sales rep spotted them in a local book store and carted copies back to the Heavily Armoured Fortress. The publisher got in touch, offered me a contract, and it's been roses ever since.

I did rewrite all three books before they were reissued, and the new editions range from 'similar-ish' to 'new content, same title'

June sees the release of book four, which is the first I've written from scratch since getting published. I'm interested to see how it's received, since the first three books were torn apart, reworked, prodded and put back together over a lengthy period, whereas this one was go to whoa in 5 or 6 months. Will that make it more consistent, more focussed, better? Or are books like good computer software, requiring ongoing tweaking and maintenance to extract the utmost?

User: kellymccullough Date: 2008-04-12 13:41 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Cool topic. For anyone who cares for details on how I did things (selling my 4th novel first, my 9th second, and 11 and 12 as 3 and 4) I posted on it here a while back.

I wonder how many novel writers
started out writing short stories?

Terry Finley

http://boycottamazon.blogspot.com/

User: jaylake Date: 2008-04-17 19:53 (UTC) Subject: Re: Writers

Not as many as I would have thought...