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[links] Link salad Saturday serving - Lakeshore
An author of no particular popularity

Jay Lake
Date: 2008-04-19 09:57
Subject: [links] Link salad Saturday serving
Security: Public
Location:Nuevo Rancho Lake
Mood:busy
Music:the_child muttering as she makes up a board game
Tags:cars, cool, links, personal, photos, politics, religion
DC-3 conversion van — Ok, I want this. Real bad. Real, real bad.

The Kentucky Space Program

APOD with another lovely and thought-proving image

Texas polygamist sect is accused of indoctrinating girls — "Girls in the west Texas polygamous sect enter into underage marriages without resistance because they are ruthlessly indoctrinated from birth to believe disobedience will lead to their damnation" How is this different from any other religion? That's a serious question, not snark. The followers of virtually all religions raise their children within their religious framework, and impose the moral and behavioral rules of their faith on their children. Why is this different? If you're going to give social approval to religious upbringing, where does the line fall in picking-and-choosing? From my atheistic point of view, it's all indoctrination, after all.

Pentagon institute calls Iraq war 'a major debacle' with outcome 'in doubt' — Damned liberal traitors have infested the Pentagon now. Where's Joe McCarthy when we really need him?

John McCain's tax returns — Note his wife's were withheld. I wonder how Your Liberal Media and conservative America would feel about Hillary withholding Bill's tax info.




4/19/08
Time in saddle: 20 minutes
Last night's weigh-out: n/a
This morning's weigh-in: 271.8
Currently reading: The Cater Street Hangman by Anne Perry Powell's | Amazon ]


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User: ellameena
Date: 2008-04-19 18:53 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
"Girls in the west Texas polygamous sect enter into underage marriages without resistance because they are ruthlessly indoctrinated from birth to believe disobedience will lead to their damnation" How is this different from any other religion? That's a serious question, not snark. The followers of virtually all religions raise their children within their religious framework, and impose the moral and behavioral rules of their faith on their children. Why is this different? If you're going to give social approval to religious upbringing, where does the line fall in picking-and-choosing? From my atheistic point of view, it's all indoctrination, after all.

By 'ruthlessly indoctrinated,' I assume that the children, especially the girls, were taught that they must obey parents and other authority figures absolutely, or go to hell, in addition to other supplemental punishments.

The teaching of judeo-christian religions on obedience is based on the commandment to 'honor thy father and mother.' However, in mainstream religion it is understood that this does not extend to tolerating abuse or harm that they might inflict on you. So where this cult differs from mainstream religion is that it condones child abuse, and forbids the child to resist or object.

In our society, we practice religious tolerance, which means we allow people to 'indoctrinate' their children as they wish. The criticism in this case is that religious indoctrination amounted to brainwashing and stockholm syndrome. Where we draw the line is, obviously, when the law is broken. Where else?
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Jay Lake
User: jaylake
Date: 2008-04-19 21:18 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
were taught that they must obey parents and other authority figures absolutely, or go to hell,

Pretty much my 5-6 year old experience of Sunday school, by the way. I was routinely threatened with hellfire.
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User: ellameena
Date: 2008-04-20 01:44 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
Well, was it ruthless? I guess that's up to you to decide.

As long as you insist that all religions and religious people share some kind of defect of the brain or ability to reason which leads to mistakes in behavior, you will continue to notice outrageous or evil behavior committed by them, then innocently ask how it's different. I don't believe that you can't understand the difference between people who rape little girls, and people who will feed, clothe, and shelter those same victims--both sides being "religious." What is your actual question?
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Jay Lake
User: jaylake
Date: 2008-04-20 04:14 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
What is your actual question?

I actually hadn't intended to bait people. Nor was I in any way pretending to (or actually) condoning the behavior of the FDLS sect, nor being obtuse about pedophilia and child abuse.

I don't insist religious people share some of kind of defect of the brain. I do think there's a fundamental error of reason embedded in the calculus of faith, but I personally have plenty of errors of reason -- that's not a failure of being human, it's pretty much a condition of being human. (For the record, my quarrel with the errors of reason within faith isn't that they exist, it's that they're so profoundly legitimized because of being identified with faith.)

My original question was only to ask why these people were being accused of religious indoctrination of their children, as if that were a bad thing. I don't argue with the *substance* of the evil, I'd just thought the basic charge a strange accusation in our society where religious indoctrination is seen as both normal and good.

A sort of mild structural question about the process of the FLDS investigation, I suppose, one which has pissed a lot of people off today. Really, truly, if I am going to piss people off, it's usually on purpose. A lot of folks seem to think I'm either being stupid or disingenuous, when I did not intend that to be the case. I failed to express myself well at all.

Edited at 2008-04-20 04:18 am (UTC)
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User: ellameena
Date: 2008-04-20 12:27 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
I think the criticism is more about the "ruthless" and "abusive" aspect. (By the way, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with Sunday school. A lot of old school churches believe that children are full of sin and must have it beaten or scared out of them.)

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