On the Mormons and their...temerity to oppose others' marriages:

You might think that an organization that for most of the first of its not yet two centuries of existence was the world’s most notorious proponent of startlingly unconventional forms of wedded bliss would be a little reticent about issuing orders to the rest of humanity specifying exactly who should be legally entitled to marry whom.

Except...when it came down to it, the Mormons gave in to the traditional view of marriage in order to participate fully in the society they wanted to join.

That is, they allowed the larger view of what marriage was defined as by the rest of society to supersede what their religious beliefs said it should be.

While it's a nice little sneer being leveled at the Mormons by a lot of people, a closer look at the issue reveals that it's legless.

Indeed, as one member of the LDS speculated recently on NPR, that may be exactly why thy supported Prop 8 so vigorously: an effort to stomp down the old polygamy angle and otherwise improve their image by being the defenders of "traditional" marriage with the zeal of the recent convert.

For more on being "just like folks", see C.S. Lewis' "Screwtape proposes a toast" (http://www.seark.net/~jlove/screwtape.htm)

"New convert?"

It's been almost 120 years since the Mormon church officially declared that plural marriages were not to be performed any longer.

I don't think that your opinion hold up under careful consideration of the facts.

Well then, as long as we're agreed we can dictate the terms of others' marriages...

Catholics and Mormon's can't marry.

as long as we're agreed we can dictate the terms of others' marriages.

Separate entirely from the discussion of same sex marriage, OF COURSE we (meaning the larger culture) can determine who can get married and who cannot-- that's one of the prime responsibilities of civilization.

Then I insist Catholic Priests and Mormon officiants not be allowed to marry anyone in order to protect my marriage.

Well, Catholic priests are forbidden by their religion to marry anyway...

"...the Mormons gave in..."

When forced, literally at gunpoint with the threat of genocide (not simply to "participate fully"), the official position of the hierarchy did. Not all morons did (or do). They still look the other way as long as practitioners don't get caught.

And they had never insisted, that I know of, on polygamy for their members. They were simply "allowed" by their beliefs to practice it. Monogamy had been an option, and they were forced (admittedly under threat) to curtail other options.

They don't want to allow us even the option. The argument is not legless. They were not forced to give up a tenant of their religion. I'm not asking to be married in their cult's temple. I'm not asking they automatically like me. I'm asking they allow me the same rights they have.

One I had last month and THEY TOOK IT AWAY.

Not all morons did (or do).

Did you leave out the second 'm' on purpose?

They still look the other way as long as practitioners don't get caught.

This statement doesn't match up with my experience with the Mormons I know. (I know a great many, being one) I'm curious as to how you formed this opinion.

The argument is not legless.

The bald statement thereto isn't a convincing argument. Can you show why you think Mormons are hypocrites on this issue?

They were not forced to give up a tenant of their religion.

You're contradicting yourself, now.

I'm not asking to be married in their cult's temple. I'm not asking they automatically like me. I'm asking they allow me the same rights they have.

What rights did you lose with the passage of proposition 8?

In the interest of fairness, there were 9 points that the CA Supreme Court found were discriminatory in regards to civil unions and civil marriages, when they overturned prop 22.

I tried to post those 9 points here, but alas-- even excising the references to other laws, the language was too long. Lexis Nexis has the information here. Search for S147999.

I don't know why my pictures of cheese on the link got all stretched out ... I'll have to look at it later.

That was a great cheese party and I think everyone had a wonderful time - thank you for being such a marvelous sommelier!

As for the tribble question, I should know this now (after Whose Line). Reproduction rate is crucial in that calculation - can you get them in before they make more?

- yeff

Beetle or minibus?

LOL! That does affect the equation, doesn't it?

Question: One. And a bunch of unpoisoned quadrotriticale.

Jay and everyone,

There are many Mormons (sadly not enough) who opposed the church's myopic, reactionary and Pharisaic stance on Prop 8.

We're not all orthodox bigots. Some of us stay inside because it's the only place changes will come from.

http://mormonsformarriage.com/

Oh, I just finished it--good for Steve Young!

He spoke at a very reduced fee for a non-profit rehabilitation organization I worked at for a long time. I always admired him for what he said there, and for shaking hands with every person in the 200+ hall. Now I admire him even more.