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Lakeshore
An author of no particular popularity

Jay Lake
Date: 2009-08-22 05:25
Subject: [links] Link salad wakes up in Bellevue, WA
Security: Public
Tags:books, calendula, cars, conventions, healthcare, links, personal, politics, science, tech
calendula_witch and I are part of a Grants Pass book signing/reading today, with dinner to follow</em>

Gravitational Waves and their LimitsCentauri Dreams on some cool cosmology.

The Electric Acid TestOn the Isle of Man, the beginnings of a marketable electric motorcycle. This is a terrific narrative.

Obama's Trust Problem — Krugman on Obama's increasingly uneasy relationship with progressives. What he said.

Brewster Rockit spots the flaw in the healthcare "debate" — I've actually had people say to me, "I like the plan I have now, therefore we don't need to change." Um...

Making Light on the absurdity of "death panels" — Even by the routine standards of conservative lies, this one's been a nonsensical whopper. Think about it people. If you opposed healthcare reform for reasons that made any sense, you might have more credibility. Being mad at Obamacare over "death panels" is like me being mad at former President Bush because of the role the State of Texas played in faking the moon landings.

More truly dumb conservative rhetoric — Strident anti-abortion Republican Rep. Michele Bachmann: "no certain circumstances will I give the government control over my body and my health care decisions." This lack of self-awareness borders on the pathological.

Originally published at jlake.com.

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lordofallfools
User: lordofallfools
Date: 2009-08-22 13:49 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
This lack of self-awareness borders on the pathological.

Not really. Think about it from his point of view: abortion takes an innocent life. From his point of view, abortion is an expression of unethical authority.

Which isn't to say he's right about health care. Just that his position is only ironic when viewed from your position.

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Jay Lake
User: jaylake
Date: 2009-08-22 13:51 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
No matter what you believe about abortion, it's still a medical procedure. (As opposed to, say, a tax policy or a tort or something.) Legislating against it is by definition giving the government control over your body and your health care decisions.
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lordofallfools
User: lordofallfools
Date: 2009-08-22 17:07 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
Mmm...I don't think he sees it quite like that.

It's not the medical procedure he opposes, but the fact that a child dies every time its performed successfully. From his point of view, the government has been given power from the governed to protect its citizens; so legislating against abortion is an extension of that role.
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Jay Lake
User: jaylake
Date: 2009-08-22 19:22 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
Understood. All I'm trying to say is you can't legislate against abortion, then take an enraged absolutist stance against government interference in healthcare decisions. Not if you aspire to coherent principles or intellectual consistency.

Kind of like claiming the absolute sanctity of life, then pushing for the death penalty, actually. The
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lordofallfools
User: lordofallfools
Date: 2009-08-22 21:46 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
Kind of like claiming the absolute sanctity of life, then pushing for the death penalty, actually.

Not at all. This is an argument often heard about in discussions on abortions, and it's a fairly ridiculous one. As if there is only one philosophical concern that opponents of abortion hold. It is an argument that lacks both nuance and honesty.

When you talk about how wrong it is to spy on American citizens without a warrant, do you also condemn searches WITH a warrant? There are circumstances to consider-- like I said, nuances that it is dishonest to gloss over.

The guy's argument against health care reform is just...dumb. Right now, *Enron* is deciding what health care is available; that's supposed to be better than the government? I'm willing to confront the weaknesses of his argument on the argument's own terms. I think that attacking his character is useless in any conversation.
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Jay Lake
User: jaylake
Date: 2009-08-23 03:06 (UTC)
Subject: (no subject)
Quite frankly, I find most antiabortion arguments lack both nuance and argument, but that's a different topic. There are principled oppositions to abortion (unlike gay marriage, say where I've never seen a principled opposition, only arguments that boil down to bigotry when peeled back), but I don't see them in play very often.

But I stand on my original observation...the argument (and it's a female rep, btw) betrays an utter lack of self-awareness. That's not an attack on character, that's an observation directly on the merits of Bachmann's statement.
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Kelly Green
User: saycestsay
Date: 2009-08-22 15:50 (UTC)
Subject: health care
A friend tells me, "We don't need health care reform. If you have an emergency, you'll be seen at the hospital. They have to."

Me: "No, they don't."

Him: "They can't turn you away."

Me: "Private hospitals can turn you away."

Him: "So you go to public hospitals."

Me: "Poor people with the flu can't afford $150 doctor visits so they go to the emergency rooms. People with emergencies are in line after them."

Him: "But you'll be seen even if you don't have money."

Me: "They still bill you. One emergency room visit you can't pay and there goes your credit rating and ability to get a bank account or job."

Him: ---

What, are they not paying attention?
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